Monday, August 29, 2005
No Easy Answers
Cindy Sheehan returned to her post outside Bush's ranch in Crawford after visiting with her mother who recently had a stroke. She isn't going away and neither are the other anti-war protesters who have rallied behind her.
There are large segments of the American population who believe that the troops should be brought home now. They claim (and rightly so, in my opinion) that our continued presence in Iraq is making the situation worse. Our current troop levels are insufficient to suppress and contain the insurgency long enough to train Iraqi troops to take over their own security and the fledgling Iraqi government we have created and are so intent on backing seems certain to bite the hand that provides it's security. Basically, these folks believe that we have moved beyond the point of anything good ever coming out of Iraq. They feel that no more lives should be lost in the direction of hopelessness.
Then, there are the folks who feel it would be unwise to just pull out of Iraq but believe it is time for a concrete exit strategy to be put into place. They don't feel that our continued indefinite presence is a good thing and they want our troops home. Yet they recognize the problems which our immediate withdrawal would cause and they want to try and avoid complete chaos, full blown civil war and an eventual hostile government (although I think that type of government is inevitable at this point.)
Then there are the "Stay the course" folks. They seem to think that setting a date for withdrawal would only empower the insurgents who would simply wait us out and then make their move. Unfortunately, staying the course is what got us here in the first place. I understand the logic behind not wanting to set a date but I don't see how "Staying the course" is any sort of solution to the problem at hand.
I honestly don't know what to think. I have opposed this war from the beginning and despise the lies and farmed intelligence which got us into this mess. But beating that dead horse doesn't get us anywhere. We are there and we have to deal with the situation as it currently stands, not as we wish it stood. I don't know that we are doing the Iraqi people any favors by our continued presence in their country, sure we are providing some segments of the population with security but our assistance is required because our presence stirs up conflict. It's a vicious cycle.
Much of our economy rests on stability in the Middle East. Whether I like it or not we ARE heavily reliant on their oil. Chaos in Iraq isn't good for anyone (especially us) but I honestly can't see order coming out of the current situation. Necessity is the mother of invention after all, perhaps without cheap Middle Eastern oil we will actually start putting some serious effort into alternative energy.
I guess I'm not smart enough to really figure this one out.
What do you guys think? Should we stay, should we pull out? Do you think we have a chance of succeeding in Iraq like Bush claims? What are the answers?
I'm going to be pretty busy over the next few weeks so my posts and comments may be a bit hit and miss until October.
There are large segments of the American population who believe that the troops should be brought home now. They claim (and rightly so, in my opinion) that our continued presence in Iraq is making the situation worse. Our current troop levels are insufficient to suppress and contain the insurgency long enough to train Iraqi troops to take over their own security and the fledgling Iraqi government we have created and are so intent on backing seems certain to bite the hand that provides it's security. Basically, these folks believe that we have moved beyond the point of anything good ever coming out of Iraq. They feel that no more lives should be lost in the direction of hopelessness.
Then, there are the folks who feel it would be unwise to just pull out of Iraq but believe it is time for a concrete exit strategy to be put into place. They don't feel that our continued indefinite presence is a good thing and they want our troops home. Yet they recognize the problems which our immediate withdrawal would cause and they want to try and avoid complete chaos, full blown civil war and an eventual hostile government (although I think that type of government is inevitable at this point.)
Then there are the "Stay the course" folks. They seem to think that setting a date for withdrawal would only empower the insurgents who would simply wait us out and then make their move. Unfortunately, staying the course is what got us here in the first place. I understand the logic behind not wanting to set a date but I don't see how "Staying the course" is any sort of solution to the problem at hand.
I honestly don't know what to think. I have opposed this war from the beginning and despise the lies and farmed intelligence which got us into this mess. But beating that dead horse doesn't get us anywhere. We are there and we have to deal with the situation as it currently stands, not as we wish it stood. I don't know that we are doing the Iraqi people any favors by our continued presence in their country, sure we are providing some segments of the population with security but our assistance is required because our presence stirs up conflict. It's a vicious cycle.
Much of our economy rests on stability in the Middle East. Whether I like it or not we ARE heavily reliant on their oil. Chaos in Iraq isn't good for anyone (especially us) but I honestly can't see order coming out of the current situation. Necessity is the mother of invention after all, perhaps without cheap Middle Eastern oil we will actually start putting some serious effort into alternative energy.
I guess I'm not smart enough to really figure this one out.
What do you guys think? Should we stay, should we pull out? Do you think we have a chance of succeeding in Iraq like Bush claims? What are the answers?
I'm going to be pretty busy over the next few weeks so my posts and comments may be a bit hit and miss until October.
posted by GodlessMom, 5:49 AM
16 Comments:
Meegan said:
I'm with you, in that I have no idea what is best (although you put it much more eloquently!). I guess a certain someone should have thought about this before he got us all into this mess.
Posted at 7:10 AM
Lila said:
Good post. If any good comes of this whole thing, maybe it will be a movement toward getting beyond fossil fuels and developing more renewable energy!
I hate the war and want it to be over, but I believe the overall loss of life will be greater if we pull out immediately. I guess I'd go with the immediate exit plan strategizing, and then pull out as quickly as possible based on that.
I fear you are right that a hostile government will take over, whatever we do.
I hate the war and want it to be over, but I believe the overall loss of life will be greater if we pull out immediately. I guess I'd go with the immediate exit plan strategizing, and then pull out as quickly as possible based on that.
I fear you are right that a hostile government will take over, whatever we do.
Posted at 7:32 AM
dAAve said:
Same here. No friggin' idea. And we do have to tackle this problem for what it is, not for what we wish it would be.
I won't get involved in my political theories behind it all. But the whole oil thing is important to factor in. I spent my career in the business. I think I know something about its importance.
I can tell you this -- after this hurricane passes and we see the effects of disruption in production of oil in the Gul of Mexico, it will only underline the significance of our UNNECESSARY dependence on foreign oil. The Middle East problems will never be solved. Our involvement in it can be minimized by:
1) creating alternative fuels
2) relaxing the restrictions on the oil companies in North America
I won't get involved in my political theories behind it all. But the whole oil thing is important to factor in. I spent my career in the business. I think I know something about its importance.
I can tell you this -- after this hurricane passes and we see the effects of disruption in production of oil in the Gul of Mexico, it will only underline the significance of our UNNECESSARY dependence on foreign oil. The Middle East problems will never be solved. Our involvement in it can be minimized by:
1) creating alternative fuels
2) relaxing the restrictions on the oil companies in North America
Posted at 8:42 AM
BarbaraFromCalifornia said:
Excellent post. It depends upon how you define success and on whose terms.
Hindsight is always 20/20, but one thing I know...Those people in the oil business have profited by this war, and their pockets are gettting thicker and thicker. As to whether the war will bring democracy to Iraq, and whether it was our business to do so, are weighty questions.
I am proud of Cindy's tenaciousness.
Hindsight is always 20/20, but one thing I know...Those people in the oil business have profited by this war, and their pockets are gettting thicker and thicker. As to whether the war will bring democracy to Iraq, and whether it was our business to do so, are weighty questions.
I am proud of Cindy's tenaciousness.
Posted at 8:50 AM
United We Lay said:
I'm going on the tour, and I think pulling out of Iraq is a mistake for now. The country will collapse. I am going on the tour because the war was wrong to begin with and we deserve answers. Also, because it has turned into a protest of Bush, not just the war, and we all know I can't stand that man.
Posted at 11:21 AM
Jess said:
Im glad you posted about this, very well written. Im not sure whats best to do but I do think we need a firm plan to leave right now. Not this indefinate crap we have now . I dont trust Bush. I want our boys and girls home in the usa. But I dont think they should just up and leave, that would only make us all appear weak I think. We didnt ever get anywhere by backing down... Whats that saying? These colors dont run. But I do think its time we get outa there, in such a way as its a smooth exit.
Posted at 12:50 PM
Lucy Stern said:
Yes, it is a very tough decision to make. I think they opened a can of worms when they went forward with this war. They will never get all the worms back in so whatever happens, it's going to be tough. We are spending a lot of money on this war, but war is never cheap.
I wish our country would get more serious with alternative fuels. There are people out there with ideas and the government just seems to stifle them, until recently. Some guy in Wisconson has come up with a fuel that is economical as long as the cost of oil is over $30. a barrel, which it most certainly is right now. I am all for new ideas. I hate seeing our country so depend on other countries for fuel.
Don't get too busy to post every so often. Talk to ya later.
I wish our country would get more serious with alternative fuels. There are people out there with ideas and the government just seems to stifle them, until recently. Some guy in Wisconson has come up with a fuel that is economical as long as the cost of oil is over $30. a barrel, which it most certainly is right now. I am all for new ideas. I hate seeing our country so depend on other countries for fuel.
Don't get too busy to post every so often. Talk to ya later.
Posted at 12:53 PM
Fred said:
AP3 got it right. I hope we finally take the road to energy independence seriously. We're one of the greatest R&D nations on the planet; now is the time to get serious.
I'm for pulling out sooner, not later. I think politics will drive the pullout.
I'm for pulling out sooner, not later. I think politics will drive the pullout.
Posted at 5:00 PM
TLP said:
The husband and I were among the fools who marched on Washington, D.C., on one of the coldest days of the year, to protest the war BEFORE it started.
Now that it has started and gone on, I'm like most everyone, I don't know what to think. (Well, other than I hate George W. Bush.)
Whenever we leave, there will be chaos, as there was in Vietnam. There will be death for those there who helped us. Whenever we leave. Doesn't matter now or later. This will happen. If we leave now, at least we save some American lives. I'm not discounting the other lives. But we can't save those people in the end. We have caused a mess, which we have no way of solving.
Now that it has started and gone on, I'm like most everyone, I don't know what to think. (Well, other than I hate George W. Bush.)
Whenever we leave, there will be chaos, as there was in Vietnam. There will be death for those there who helped us. Whenever we leave. Doesn't matter now or later. This will happen. If we leave now, at least we save some American lives. I'm not discounting the other lives. But we can't save those people in the end. We have caused a mess, which we have no way of solving.
Posted at 5:11 PM
nigel paddell said:
I agree with Don Swift, it's about how many of our have to die before we have to pull out.
This is a cross of two issues: A momumentally foolish energy policy, and the misuse of our millitary forces. They are in harms way for no legitimate reason and no idea of when they can get out.
I really doubt the millitary vote will reflexively go Republican next time.
This is a cross of two issues: A momumentally foolish energy policy, and the misuse of our millitary forces. They are in harms way for no legitimate reason and no idea of when they can get out.
I really doubt the millitary vote will reflexively go Republican next time.
Posted at 5:55 PM
Aerodynamicist said:
Myself, I think we should leave...democracy doesn't work unless the people decide to do it. No matter if we leave now or in ten years, I don't think Iraq will be a democracy. If the people who hate their leader can't be bothered, who's going to stop a new dictator when we do finally leave? Besides which, all we're doing is creating more terrorists. We should leave in an organized fashion as soon as possible, and then proceed with economic assisstance to feed/support the general populace-it'd be cheaper to feed the whole country than to run this war. At this point, any decision will involve people getting killed, so I think that we should let the insurgents kill their own innocents instead of ours. I have friends over there, and an uncle who'll be sent a month after his daughter's born...all to "liberate" some people who don't seem to want liberation.
Posted at 6:48 PM
Saur♥Kraut said:
I think we should pull out. But that's been my stand for over a year now, no surprises.
We've been in there too long, I fail to see the continuing need. No, let me rephrase that: I am not convinced of a continuing need that is valid enough to justify our continued presence.
We've been in there too long, I fail to see the continuing need. No, let me rephrase that: I am not convinced of a continuing need that is valid enough to justify our continued presence.
Posted at 8:04 PM
Danny Sims said:
Does anyone believe we'd be in Iraq if 9-11 had not happened? I do hate the war, but do some of you really "hate" the President? Wow. Save your hate for war, Bin Laden and the terrorists.
Posted at 9:11 PM
Kyahgirl said:
Well you're right, its pretty damn complicated. Its so refreshing to hear someone say they can't figure it out. I can't either.
I guess the bottom line for me is, the cost is so high, in terms of people, resources, progress towards peace. I don't think the Western world (not only the US) can really make a substantial positive change in that region of the world unless it is through peaceful support. There is too much history involved. And, humans aren't really highly evolved enough to solve it simply.
I think the war must end, or at least our involvement with it. It has to be a planned pull out though with an effort to minimize losses all around. The whole mess in the middle east is such a losing situation all around. It breaks my heart.
And yes, we'd better get busy trying to figure out alternative energy sources for the future.
I guess the bottom line for me is, the cost is so high, in terms of people, resources, progress towards peace. I don't think the Western world (not only the US) can really make a substantial positive change in that region of the world unless it is through peaceful support. There is too much history involved. And, humans aren't really highly evolved enough to solve it simply.
I think the war must end, or at least our involvement with it. It has to be a planned pull out though with an effort to minimize losses all around. The whole mess in the middle east is such a losing situation all around. It breaks my heart.
And yes, we'd better get busy trying to figure out alternative energy sources for the future.
Posted at 10:48 AM
dddragon said:
I am also against the war, but now that we're there, I'm not sure that an immediate pull-out is a great idea, as much as I'd like it to happen. So I'm with you in not knowing what to do.
Posted at 3:01 PM
The Lazy Iguana said:
While the national guard is off playing policeman in Iraq, what is happening in New Orleans?
Bush should have to spend a night on a rooftop, surrounded by dead animal carcases and toxic polluted salt flood water.
Bush should have to spend a night on a rooftop, surrounded by dead animal carcases and toxic polluted salt flood water.
Posted at 11:25 PM