Godless Mom in the Bible Belt

I really enjoy watching Real Time with Bill Maher on Friday nights. For those of you who might be unfamiliar with the program, Bill Maher hosts a program where political and social issues are discussed in a no-punches-pulled kind of way. He usually does a personal interview with someone famous and then has a round table discussion with a panel of three guests. Current events and current topics are bantered about and I usually walk away having learned something.

Now, I don't always agree with Bill. He is a far Left kind of guy with some extreme ideas but I respect the way he calls it like he sees it. He stirs up controversy and gets people thinking. I like that.

Last Friday's show was a really good one. First off, he interviewed Ann Coulter. Now, for reasons too obvious to go into, I don't much like Ms. Coulter. I think she is evil. During the course of the interview I got to see Ann Coulter back step on her support of George Bush due to her dislike of his recent Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers. That made me smile. Annie dear, you made your bed, you lie in it.

However, the point of this post is not Ann Coulter. What I would like to discuss is a comment Bill Maher made and the resulting conversation on his panel. His panel was made up of conservative blogger Andrew Sullivan, actor Ben Affleck and author Salman Rushdie. I've cut some of the text out for the sake of brevity (and by brevity I mean I didn't transcribe the entire hour...grin.)

Bill Maher: There is no diversity of religion in the country. George Bush does have a diverse cabinet when it comes to race, they've done a pretty good job: Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, so forth. But, you know, I don't think race makes someone as diverse nowadays as how you think about religion and there is no secular voice, there's no voice of Me in this cabinet. Everyone who gets appointed has to be not just Christey but Super-Christey; Double-dog Christey. Twice-born Christey. But you know what? People of faith, and when I hear "people of faith" I think "Well those are people who suspend rational judgment for nonsensical bullshit that they believe." Where is the diversity of the people who think like myself and perhaps like you [points to Rushdie.]

Ben Affleck: I think that's oversimplifying and perhaps a bit insulting.

Andrew Sullivan: Thank you Ben.

Ben Affleck: People of faith aren't stupid [just because] they're people of faith. I mean, I just disagree. I think that's stupid, in fact, to suggest that. I think that ultimately-

Bill Maher: What they have is a mental block.

Ben Affleck: Well there may be on the edge of whatever religious extreme of whatever religious spectrum you want to look at, but there is certainly a gamut, and just saying well someone who is religious whether they are Jewish or an Orthodox Jew or a Christian who goes to church once a week or four times a week or believes that every word that is in the Bible is literal. Or, like the president thinks, well it isn't all literal but I believe in it. [Their belief] Doesn't inherently make them stupid.

Bill Maher: Really? If you believe the word of the Bible literally, if you believe the world is five thousand years old, that's not stupid?

Ben Affleck: I think most religious people, like, don't think that Jonah lived in the belly of a whale for two hundred years-

Bill Maher: In America they do-

Overtalk regarding how many Americans believe in Biblical inerrancy.

Andrew Sullivan: Bill, I'm a person of faith and I rather resent being called stupid.

Bill Maher: I'm not calling you stupid-

Andrew Sullivan: Yes you did-

Bill Maher: No, I'm saying it's a mental block.

Andrew Sullivan: I'm saying you have a mental block when it comes to people of faith.

Bill Maher: No, I had a mental block when I was a child, when they taught me this nonsense and when I got to be an adult I got over it.

More overtalk.

Salman Rushdie: A couple of years ago before the Iraq nonsense began I was invited to Washington and I got to speak to a group of senators of both parties and the thing that was most obviously different between the Democrats and the Republicans was that the Republicans exclusively used religious language. Exclusively. And the Democrats did not. That really scared me. There was one of the Senators, which I guess I shouldn't name, who asked me why it was that Osama Bin Laden said that America was a Godless country? He was really offended by that, he said, "We're not Godless, we're very Godly." And I said, "Well, I guess Mr. Bin Laden doesn't think so."

Bill Maher: If only he knew us better, he might like us better.

Salman Rushdie: Yes, [there is] a lot in common.

Andrew Sullivan: People of faith are not talking about what is known, they're talking about what is not known and what we cannot know. And genuine people of faith are not going to make these asinine statements like Franklin Graham or these nutcases that you point out. They are going to be humble in front of God, they are going to recognize that there are some things science cannot tell you: The meaning of the universe, the point of our lives, what morality is, what happens to us after death, how we should treat our fellow human beings. Those questions, I think, in true people of faith who don't seek to impose on other people, who are just trying to find a way to live their lives in a good way. By demonizing all people of faith what you are doing is playing into the hands of these fundamentalists. The United States is based on a separation of church and state and that is why religion is so strong in this country. The Republican party has betrayed that tradition and you're right to call them on it, but don't, DON'T conflate that with the greatness of many religions and the greatness of many people in them.

Bill Maher: I'm sorry, but they are your fellow travelers-

The conversation breaks down a bit, some argument regarding the beauty vs. darkness of organized religion.

Andrew Sullivan: The people who take their faith seriously I think are also respectful of people of other faiths and also respectful of people with no faith at all.

Salman Rushdie: That's not true. That's not true at all.

Andrew Sullivan: I'm not saying that everybody is, I'm saying that people who really, for example, listen to the words of Jesus and the Gospels are not going to try and depress other people. The message of Jesus, if you listen to it, is of compassion and tolerance of people.

Bill Maher: I love Jesus, I just don't like the Christians who don't believe in what he says.

Ben Affleck: See, now you're making a good point. If you look at the Old Testament, the New Testament, The Quran, the practices none of this is explicitly preaching violence or oppression. There are idiots and assholes in all walks of life. They're everywhere.

Salman Rushdie: They do seem to be in charge.

End transcript


This is the type of conversation that plays out over and over again when we speak about religion in our country and the roll it plays. I think that this conversation with this panel had the potential to really go some wonderful places. Unfortunately Bill opened the whole thing by being unnecessarily inflammatory which set the whole thing off on the wrong foot.

Bill has a good point, it is hard to know the exact numbers but it is estimated that between 10 and 16% of our country would fall into the atheist/agnostic category. Granted, it isn't even close to a majority, but it isn't a percentage to sneeze at either. Yet, you see virtually no secular people in our government, particularly in the Bush cabinet. I would like to hear a discussion on that matter as it is one close to my heart. However, Bill had to go and make the "nonsensical bullshit" comment which sent the whole conversation in the wrong direction.

Ben Affleck also makes some good points. People of faith in our country really do run the gamut, there is a whole spectrum of beliefs out there ranging from quiet personal spirituality tempered by logic to wild-eyed zealots who wield their beliefs like a sword and accept no disagreement. It is unfair and wrong to judge all religious people by those who make the worst impression.

Andrew Sullivan is absolutely correct when he says that the teachings of Jesus are about love and tolerance and Bill Maher echoes my sentiments exactly when he said, "I love Jesus, I just don't like the Christians who don't believe what he said."

I also think Andrew Sullivan makes a very good point when he tells Bill that by demonizing all people of faith Bill is playing right into the hands of the fundamentalists.

I think Salman Rushdie sums up the entire thing though when he said, "They (the assholes) do seem to be in charge."

I like Bill Maher, I think he serves an important role in a society where the media is lame and all but useless. His confrontational nature serves to cut through bullshit and put the real issues front and center. However, like any other pundit he is extreme. It is unfortunate that his is the lone voice of atheism in news/entertainment media. Almost like Jerry Falwell being the lone voice of Christianity and Osama Bin Laden being the lone voice of Islam...Okay, maybe he's not THAT extreme but you get my point. Sigh.